Did The Egyptian God Osiris Exist? A Debate
There's one atheist argument that no Christian theist can actually frighten, and each time I've used it, no Christian theist has efficiently tried to refute this. It goes like this: "Had you been born and raised in a special or previous society / tradition [like that of ancient Egypt] you'd be singing the praises of a fairly completely different deity (or deities) with equal religion, perception or conviction [like Osiris] and you realize this to be so. So what does that say in regards to the existence of your Christian God? "
So how would my all too frequent debating colleague often called MG react to this? Properly MG raised the difficulty of the existence of Osiris - a god inside the pantheon of the traditional Egyptian deities.
MG - "Atheists really do very often say that God doesn't exist ..."
JP - Some do, however these individuals are misrepresenting the accepted atheist place. That's NOT the place I undertake. My place is that you just, as a theist, making a optimistic declare, have the burden of proof to again it up. Now let's see if you happen to can. I critically doubt it.
[Even though there is no evidence for God's existence that does not preclude the possibility that God exists just that the burden of proof exists with the theist making the positive claim. Can that argument be applied to the ancient Egyptian god Osiris?]
MG - "Likewise, no rational individual says" I simply haven't seen proof of Osiris. "No, Osiris doesn't exist, and everyone knows it."
JP - The traditional Egyptians didn't know that. Had been all of them delusional? In that case, doesn't recommend that every one deities are delusional since there's no proof for any of them?
JP - And the traditional Egyptians had proof and sound causes to imagine Osiris did exist.
JP - The traditional Egyptians have been clever and rational individuals and believed within the existence of Osiris. So your argument is downright foolish. Irrespective of the way you slice and cube issues, lots of people, as rational and as clever as you, believed within the existence of Osiris. Who the heck do you suppose you might be to move judgment on them!
MG - "We've got proof and sound causes to imagine Osiris doesn't exist."
JP - Who's "We"? Communicate for your self. Concerning the traditional Egyptians and Osiris, so what makes you suppose that you just're higher, extra clever, and extra rational, than they have been? A bit up your self - sure? However additional to the purpose, you might be an atheist with regards to Osiris. You say Osiris doesn't exist, but that's simply your opinion. How do you really know Osiris doesn't exist? You can't completely show that Osiris doesn't exist and you realize you cannot, however if you happen to suppose you can, accomplish that right here and now. Give the readers right here your "proof".
MG - "OK, I've stable causes to imagine that Osiris doesn't exist. If Osiris did exist, then there could be a religious plain of existence during which our personal spirits are judged (our hearts weighed towards a feather). not have spirits, there will be no such place, and Osiris can't exist. "
JP - Whereas I agree with you that there is no such thing as a spirit world, thousands and thousands of different clever and rational individuals would willingly take you to job in your non-spiritual plain of existence worldview.
JP - Concerning Osiris: 1) Osiris could have been an precise human who legend has over the centuries in historic Egypt been blown out of all proportion with the telling and retelling and re-retelling of his story. 2) If we're simulated animals then Osiris had the identical diploma of digital actuality as you now have. three) Osiris could have been an 'historic astronaut' - he's often depicted having inexperienced pores and skin! four) Osiris affiliated the underworld so he would usually be out of sight besides to the lately useless awaiting judgment and potential resurrection into the Egyptian model of the afterlife.
Now utilizing this query of Osiris for instance, I've the decided opinion that you just've set your self up as decide, jury and executioner over a whole historic tradition rubbishing them simply because they held completely different perception techniques than you do. So what makes you proper and all the historic Egyptian Empire mistaken? Lastly, don't knock one other tradition until you've walked a mile of their footwear.
MG - The Egyptians (and different historic teams) have been rational individuals, however they didn't have sufficient info to comprehend their gods didn't exist. We've got sufficient info to point out these didn't exist, as I did within the case of Osiris. "
JP - So once more you've set your self up as decide, jury and executioner over a whole historic tradition rubbing them simply because they held completely different perception techniques than you do by suggesting they lack ample info.
MG - "The purpose is that the gods of historic civilizations will be proven to not exist, however the God of the Bible is much more believable now (with extra info collected) than He was again then."
JP - Concerning proof for God, effectively the traditional Greeks would offer you proof for Zeus (and the remainder of the Olympians); the Norse proof for Odin; the traditional Egyptians proof for Osiris & Isis; the Aztecs proof for Quetzalcoatl; the Incas proof for Viracocha; the Hindus proof for Brahma; the American Indians proof for a Nice Spirit; the Australian Aborigines proof for his or her Rainbow Serpent and on and on it goes. You not solely have to offer proof for God, however refute all of the proof for Zeus, Horus, and many others. You may in all probability provide you with a number of different examples of deities which can be at present believed in different trendy monotheistic religions; deities that you'd additionally have to negate to be able to show God because the one true god.
JP - Akin to the Osiris argument, since no one prior to now a number of thousand years has confirmed the precise existence of your most well-liked deity (ie - God), what makes you suppose you'll be able to?
JP - So even in spite of everything of those posts of yours you're nonetheless not one jot nearer to offering any proof for much much less offering the existence of your most well-liked deity than you have been while you began. Going off on tangents about Osiris does nothing to bolster up your case in your most well-liked deity.
JP - So let's stick with trendy occasions and simply neglect about Osiris for the second who in spite of everything is sort of past our attain and there since his standing can't really be decided. So, let's say that while you lastly kick-the-bucket you go off to the Pearly Gates solely to be greeted by the Trinity of Shiva, Braham and Vishnu. Oops! Now you've billion or so rational and clever individuals, true believers residing proper now who settle for the existence of the Trinity of Shiva, Braham and Vishnu. So why are they mistaken and once more, who're you to move judgment?
Notice: There was no response to this problem.
Conclusion: The aim right here was to not present that Osiris really existed slightly than in precept the Christian God and the Egyptian deity Osiris are on equal theological footing since neither can show to have had existence or non-existence. There's as a lot or as little chance for the one as for the opposite. That's in distinction to MG who asserts that the Christian God really exists in precise reality and that the Egyptian deity Osiris doesn't exist and by no means has existed in precise reality.
oooooOOOOOooooo
Postscript: Now right here's one purpose why I feel it is best to discover the Simulation Speculation interesting. All theologies may very well be 'true' - Osiris might have really 'escaped'.
Postscript: God just isn't a essential being. Brahma, Shiva, Isis and Osiris maybe, however not God. Really in truth there is no such thing as a such factor as a essential being since beings or entities are under no circumstances, form or type basic to existence.
Postscript: What about private experiences? Private experiences are simply that, private. They convey no proof referring to that have to anybody else who has not shared that have, an unexpectedly occurring since, by definition, the expertise was private. Additional, religious experiences aren't restricted to God, Jesus or the Virgin Mary. All method of different deities from Osiris to Shiva to Apollo and Odin have been personally skilled. That additionally applies to extraterrestrials in addition to having visions and communications with the Deceased.
Postscript: The idea of a resurrection just isn't by any means restricted to Jesus. Resurrection, for instance, was a typical theme in Historic Greek mythology. Hercules, as famous above, received resurrected by his daddy too! And in Historic Egyptian mythology, Osiris was resurrected by Isis. Additional, if you happen to learn the Gospels side-by-side as an alternative on consecutively, you'll observe that the varied accounts of the resurrection of Jesus are inconsistent and contradictory with quite a few discrepancies with respect to who (that differs) noticed what; between what really occurred (that differs too) and when; and between when (timelines additionally differ) no matter occurred really occurred. The personnel, occasions and timelines aren't constant.
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